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GSP/Lab Mix dilema
Last Post 01 Jun 2010 06:28 PM by Hillbilly. 26 Replies.
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Author Messages
spenser_price87User is Offline Pheasant Egg Pheasant Egg Send Private Message Posts:10 spenser_price87
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28 May 2010 11:08 PM
Others inputs are welcome also.......
HillbillyUser is Offline Master Hunter Master Hunter Send Private Message Posts:706 Hillbilly
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29 May 2010 02:38 PM
Go check this site out it is very resourcefull on GSP's. They also have alot of history on the German Shorthaired pointer in the USA. You all might not agree with some of it but it explains alot.

http://www.westwindgsps.com/
Life's Short Play Hard
freefallgspUser is Offline Pheasant Chick Pheasant Chick Send Private Message Posts:65 freefallgsp
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29 May 2010 07:46 PM

Spenser --

I'm sure many other people who had Spanish Pointers and German Scent Hounds also didn't agree that someone might have been breeding their dog's together. But then again, you have to remember that many breeders back then didn't have the Internet and telephone either. It's a change not many of us are approving of, but we will evolve if necessary.

However,

Take a look at all the history of many, many breeds found today. You will learn a lot, especially if you read stuff on the Dobermann Pinscher, there are many things discussed in the oldest books of documented breeding, such as white dobes, fawns and blues. Some documents even going back to the original breedings if you can find them on pedigree databases.

Yes, the GSP was by experimentation. As was the lab, the Great Dane and even Chihuahua. But there are many things you have to take into account.

The people that wanted to do these breedings had NUMEROUS breeding pairs. 10-15 of each breed sometimes, and bred them to dogs with the same physical characteristics and temperaments they wanted to get (pitbulls bred for bull fighting, pointers bred for nose and hunting, Terriers bred for their "vivacity" on rodents and willingness to kill these rodents in the cellars and pantries of castles/mansions). They would see how the dogs matured sometimes even until about 3-4 years old before breeding them.

Dogs like the Labradoodle, Puggle, etc. don't have much purpose or were bred for a purpose. Also, the thing you need to read up on is that one person was in operation of this, and kept the puppies... all of them. Typically breeds are named after the area they were born, German Shorthair, Old English Sheepdog, etc. These breeders wanted to see them mature, and out of those breedings, they bred them to another dog with the same temperament and physical attributes, etc. All this was to create a dog they wanted to see progress. Puppies in Dobes that became too aggressive or would bite their master would get put down. All the puppies, also euthanized and the parents taken out. Over in Europe, they don't tolerate aggressive dogs, here in the USA -- we are a little more lenient and put a "human emotion" on the dog, saying that it "slipped up" and give it a second chance.


You also have to remember is that if a puppy came out the wrong color (White in Dobes and German Shepherd Dogs) the litter was culled at birth and the parents fixed/put down and removed completely from the breeding program. Back then, it was the fault of the line. They sometimes even went to the extreme to the remove the siblings of the parents to prevent the dreaded color from coming back. Those dogs that managed to "squeak through" the breeding program carry the white gene now, and that's why there are some white GSDs and Dobes in existance. Same thing with the Tri-Color GSP or "Gelber Brand" in Germany. It wasn't until the dogs were in the "form the breeder wanted to see them as" that they sold the dogs. At that point it was: "I got my dog from some farmer." Pretty soon many more people saw that the GSP was quite the feather and fur dog that everyone wanted one.

These dogs were consistent - liver or white, or black and white and had the ticking and same body shape/size. They all performed the same duty equally, some better than others (or less) and when bred to one another, produced a dog that looked the same as the parents. That is when you have created a "breed" and it can no longer evolve other than small characteristics such as feeling of the coat, eye color (pale vs dark brown), long and low-set ears on the head vs high-set, etc.

Same thing with the Labradoodle, Puggle, etc. Except, there are probably thousands of Labradoodles and Puggles out there. There is no control on "creating a breed", it was just breeding a purebred to a different purebred and getting crosses/mixes/mutts. Every dog has a purpose. Non-Sporting and Toy are primarily companion dogs, but they all look relatively the same when you look and see a Dalmatian, you see a Dalmatian. Labradoodles/Goldendoodles/Puggles have a wide range of color, size, etc. Many labs are within 23-28 inches, shorthairs should be within 23-27 based on gender. Unlike a Labradoodle where they can be 20-30inches call. Too much of a range, color, or possible health issues.

Hence why Sheltie breeders have a certain height limit. Dogs too big are typically not finished with a CH or bred. It is only the bigger Shelties that typically are bred to produce herding dogs. Thus a Rough-Coated Collie, which I've heard is supposed to be the bigger cousin of the Sheltie, and was primarily used for farm work like a collie. A more laid-back of that breed, too. It's all about purpose and creating a "general standard" of what you wanted your dogs to look like, act like, perform like. You can have extremes of both in the first litter, and even the second litter. The problem you will have with your German Shorthaired Labs is that so many people are doing this breeding. There is no straight or "line" to follow. It is just people breeding their dogs together to try and get a better dog.

There is no "control group" to monitor colors, sizes, temperaments, work ethic, or even health issues. People are creating puppies for their benefit, and that's how I'm looking at it, as you can see that is where I might get a little upset.

Question -- you talk about creating a breed -- would you be willing to keep all the puppies from a litter of 12-13? What about keeping their puppies in a future litter? And the next, until you get what you want? Remember, "creating a breed" can take many generations. So hypothetically making your German Retriever or your Labrador Pointer takes 4 generations of breeding. In that time, you acquire 3 more breeding pairs. You breed several litters a year, trying to find perfection in each litter.

So, you have 4 adult, ready to breed pairs. You breed for roughly 4 years, skipping a year each breeding to watch your puppies grow until a year before trying another pair. Each pair has roughly 10 puppies born. 4(males)x4(females)x4(litters a year)x10(puppies per litter) is... 640 dogs. Would you be willing to house 640 dogs until they are 15 before you say you have the "breed you want"? Not to mention all the puppies you might need to potentially cull do to defects, the parents you might need to remove from the breedings, the future puppies that might come from generation 1 bred to generation 1 or another different parent dog on Gen0...

That's a lot of dogs, isn't it?

Then again, this is just my opinion. But read up on a lot of breeds and decide if it's worth the time and effort for one dog. You also mentioned wanting to have a good Lab that would have the tracking potential of your GSP.

What if none of the puppies came up with amazing tracking still of the GSP because you bred the GSP to a Lab with no tracking ability? Would it have been worth it to have "so-so" hunting pets?

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"A good bird dog is only as good as your aim, as the proof is always in the bag." - Unknown
HillbillyUser is Offline Master Hunter Master Hunter Send Private Message Posts:706 Hillbilly
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29 May 2010 09:17 PM
Wirehaired Pointing Griffons are a good example. He had 12 dogs only using 11 the 12th held back to refresh the breed. Now look at the breed and it's faults ( I've owned and breed alot of them). They're aggressive, Eye problems, Hernias, Hip Displaysia, and Shy. Now I bred sound dogs to sound dogs but every litter talkin 10 litters only 2 litters didn't have defects. That's why I don't breed them. I don't care what any Griffon breeder says there is to much defect in the breed. With the GSP they had so many different lines that they could make or custom build the perfect dog now you still get defect but not like in Griffons. But in the days of making these breeds they had 100's of dogs well because they were rich and they didn't buy dog food they killed it. Also their neighbors couldn't call the sheriff well because they owned him to. I see nothing wrong with breeding mixed breed dogs I call them meat dogs sounds better then mutt. I think people should have breeding programs like the hound hunters do. They cull dogs and lots of them to get the perfect dog. But sense I ran hounds to came to find out that there is less culling in a proven line breeding program. Which comes to my point. If you want a dog like Skippy look at the pedigree and find one closest to Skippy. This way you get the dog you want. Now I've bred alot of dogs and still will breed a litter here and there but it is cheaper to buy a dog then it is to breed a litter. Especially if something goes wrong. I've worked guiding at places were they bred Griffons to German Wirehairs every pup I saw had no defect but it didn't matter if they did they were put down. So if you want to see it all work place the dogs in homes were they are hunted and evaluated. Them your problem is solvedbut what I would do in your situation I'd keep a pup and give the rest away because all you want is a pup and it's going to be a pet I'm guessing before a hunting dog. Were I live I know guys that hunt with mixed breed cow dogs. Good luck to you.
Life's Short Play Hard
freefallgspUser is Offline Pheasant Chick Pheasant Chick Send Private Message Posts:65 freefallgsp
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29 May 2010 10:49 PM
Good point, Hillbilly. Same thing with the Greater Swiss Mountain Dog... you can trace the pedigree back to the same 10 dogs from Switzerland that were documented before the breed almost hit extinction. Now we have Splenic torsion, Bloat, Epilepsy and Hip Dysplasia to name a few.

It is MUCH cheaper to buy a puppy that you want versus breeding... ha. Sometimes you'll breed a bitch and pay a 1000 stud fee after a confirmed litter only to have her absorb the puppies later in the pregnancy and not have a single pup! When you were only going to sell the pups for 8-900, ouch!

Again, good luck on the choice you make.
Home Of:

Suma Kiss of Kings MH


Hunter's Ridge Sinking the Bismarck MH
Get Your Free Pedigree Today!

"A good bird dog is only as good as your aim, as the proof is always in the bag." - Unknown
spenser_price87User is Offline Pheasant Egg Pheasant Egg Send Private Message Posts:10 spenser_price87
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30 May 2010 09:21 PM
wow. i didnt know it was that in-depth!. thanks for the good info and advice guys. ill do a lot of reading up on it. you've completely changed my mind. not that i would say i am a selfish person, but it seems like doing what i was suggesting is a bit selfish and not thinking about GSPs or Labs in the future(didnt think i would ever say that, cause i love them haha). i have nowhere near the resources to pull off a breeding of that magnitude, which would be the only way to do it properly. thanks again. im going to either breed to get another GSP or a Lab and work on them and their offspring in future generations.
HillbillyUser is Offline Master Hunter Master Hunter Send Private Message Posts:706 Hillbilly
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01 Jun 2010 06:28 PM
Don't let us scare you out of breeding dog's. Because I think it is an enjoyable thing to do. But just do your research and I can tell you already do and never expect to make money at it. But I do want to welcome you a board the forum and please feel free to post we need more bird dog guys and gals on here.
Life's Short Play Hard
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